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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jul 11, 2011 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: More Quotes

I suspect many jazz quotes are lurking in later Dead jams.

For instance, some people hear Lesh quoting Brubeck's Take Five in Truckin'/Other One jams - like briefly, at 7:45 in this one:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-09-23.sbd.jeffm.2201.sbeok.shnf
Phil does that line a lot (there are probably better examples, that's just the first one I could find).

edit - Found a definite Take Five in '76 - Keith leads the way in this one, and Jerry even kind of plays the melody - after 1:40 in track 18, the jam before Comes a Time:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd76-10-03.sbd-aud.cotsman.12832.sbeok.shnf
(One thing that often happens in these '76 transitions is that Keith will set the rhythm for a jam; he does it for a bit in the post-Wheel jam, too.)

Or there's one very common Phil riff in '73 I've mentioned before, for instance after 6:20 in this Dark Star:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-24.pset2.sbd.176.hamilton.sbeok.shnf
It's a similar line, sounds like it should be familiar....

edit #2 - snow&rain pointed out another Phil quote.
Footprints, off the Miles Smiles album - here's Miles playing it live on 4/12/70, opening for the Dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z3bAytZOM4
And here's Phil quoting the bassline, after 6:25 in track 24, after Truckin':
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-11.sbd.jackson.smith.94377.sbeok.flac16

This post was modified by light into ashes on 2011-07-11 18:04:37

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Jul 11, 2011 11:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Some more nice finds and observations. I think the 76 jam would have to be called "take 8" rather than "take 5" though, because the phrase Keith is playing does use a lot of the same intervals and syncopated rhythm as Brubeck's comp in Take 5, but it is a longer phrase that fits into a standard 4/4 meter rather than the asymmetrical time signature that gives Take 5 its name. It's like Keith took the line and put a couple more beats in the middle to even it out to fit with the existing pulse the drummers are playing.

I hear the distinctive Phil riffs in that 73 Dark Star to be part of what I think of as a big "family" of material in 73-75 based on intricate but driving bass-heavy loops. Stronger than Dirt, Slipknot, post-Eyes, the Unbroken Chain instrumental break - all of these seem to overlap with the kind of intervals and rhythms you hear Phil playing with in that Dark Star section.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jul 11, 2011 2:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

"Take 8," ha....I'm very bad at telling these things!

That Phil riff in the Dark Star was actually the genesis of this post - a couple people asked me if it was from a jazz tune, so I started listening around to try to find out. Haven't found that one, but these others came up....

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jul 11, 2011 7:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Actually, revisiting the '76 jam, I think perhaps I was thrown by Keith's rhythm - I don't think I'd call it a Take Five quote anymore. On 7/17/76 he plays pretty much the same thing coming out of Eyes, where it's kind of a twist of his normal Eyes chord pattern.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jul 11, 2011 11:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Awhile back we kicked this around ,sort of.

http://www.archive.org/post/283428/12-6-73-dark-star

As for Coltranes/free jazz influence on the band I think it is very much understated and misunderstood by the listeners.I feel it is every bit as evident in their playing and ideology as their blues,c+w and bluegrass roots,even more so than their rock influences,very rarely do the GD sound like a rock band,they rock out but very much in GD style.Let me say that these comments are in relation to the band at their creative and performing peak between 68'-74',after that things got cloudy.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-26.sbd.GoodBear.80602.flac16


Here are a few examples of what I consider the band displaying the Coltrane/free jazz influence in a clear and indisputable fashion.
http:www.archive.org/details/gd1973-06-26.sbd.goodbear.80602.flac16
After the Bobby McGee the band returns to the Other One and at 13:00 minutes they fall into a very pretty space with Jer and Weir locked in and some killer Phil underneath,the band then launches into a stomping,ear splitting jam,at about 15:37 you hear some very Coltrane like bleating and honking.Throughout the song and especially in the 4 minute segment between 13-17 minutes Phil,Billy and Bob reflect strongly the influence Jimmy Garrison,Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner had on their playing styles.You only need to listen to some of the more "out" style Coltrane to hear it.For me this is some of the most exhilarating GD I have ever heard.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-06-08.sbd.miller.97268.sbeok.flac16

This version of Playin' in the Band is just gorgeous,at the 12:00 minute mark Jerry leads a nice full band jam and at 13:00 minutes Jerry,Weir and Keith develop a beautiful trio with Keith playing insect jam(tiger jam)like licks which lead into a cacophonous,really out space.At approximately 14:33 some ungodly,screeching saxophone like wails join the mix and the madness continues until about 17;00 when the music returns to earth somewhat for another six minutes of brilliant playing.
For a final example I'd like to put up a kind of obvious choice in that has a free jazz saxophonist on it.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1969-08-03.sbd.miller.30652.sbeok.flac16

The Dark Star and Other One-> Caution from this show are unique and deserve more recognition and praise.The band is joined by free jazz saxophonist Charles Lloyd and electric violinist David LaFlamme from It's a Beautiful,they dive in head first to a full on free for all and create some truly inspired and singular music,a credit to the musicians involved,in that they in a live performance setting,melded what could be considered dissimilar instrumentation and styles on very demanding and challenging compositions and almost seamlessly spit out some intense killer music.For my money one the bands finest performances of the 60's.

I'm just stupid enough to need 2 revisions to fix the first mistake.




This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:17:54

This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:18:12

This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-07-11 18:23:05

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Jul 11, 2011 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Some more great links and discussion! I'm listening to that 8/3/69 right now and I can't believe I'd missed this one. This is definitely a really amazing and unique jam!

This is clearly a major tape to have come into circulation subsequent to my printed references that I often use to guide my listening, my Deadbase doesn't mention a guest on this night and there is no review in the Taper's Compendium.

I am so excited right now, this is some really impressive stuff I was not aware of previously. EDIT: Some really hilarious quotations in the post-Caution jam. Can't place all of them on first hearing, but "Stars and Stripes Forever" is really prominent.

This post was modified by bkidwell on 2011-07-11 19:52:18

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jul 11, 2011 12:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

The tape only surfaced in the last 10 years, so it's not mentioned in older printed references (or anything in print, really).
The mix goes downhill in Caution, unfortunately, but it kind of suits the music! This is kind of a precursor to the "horns tour" of Sept '73, though the guests are given more far-out stuff to work with here.

Here's a blogpost about Charles Lloyd and his relations with the Dead:
http://lostlivedead.blogspot.com/2009/12/guest-flute-players-with-grateful-dead.html

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Jul 11, 2011 1:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Thanks, somehow I had missed that post while reading through the lostlivedead site. (Edit: thought this was on your blog at first LIA, I see now it isn't.) 8/3/69 is really interesting and worthy of a lot of discussion, I will need to do some more listening, but I think it might be the most interesting jam with guest musicians in the band's history. Things definitely do go downhill late in Caution, mixwise and in terms of the jam, I think the feedback/space was perhaps not to the guest musicians taste, because they seem to respond with a lot of different quotations or allusions that don't really gel. It would be interesting to try to identify all of them, because there seem to be a lot. Prior to that, though, the jamming is really impressive on all fronts.

This post was modified by bkidwell on 2011-07-11 20:19:28

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Jul 11, 2011 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-06-08.sbd.miller.97268.sbeok.flac16

This version of Playin' in the Band is just gorgeous,at the 12:00 minute mark Jerry leads a nice full band jam and at 13:00 minutes Jerry,Weir and Keith develop a beautiful trio with Keith playing insect jam(tiger jam)like licks which lead into a cacophonous,really out space.At approximately 14:33 some ungodly,screeching saxophone like wails join the mix and the madness continues until about 17;00 when the music returns to earth..."


Wow... I hadn't heard this in a while... truly amazing. Thank you. This piece really shows how important Keith was for it to really take off, he's transcendent. The wailing sound - can we assume that's Phil on feedback? or Bobby? Also, another instance where the single drummer sounds/works better than two.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jul 11, 2011 8:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

UJ52,this one hit you like it does me,I find Keith's playing to be integral and just right in the pocket.It's funny you mentioned the wailing sound because the first time I listened I had to do a few playbacks to figure out who was doing what,and arrive at the conclusion that Phil is one hell of a feedback saxophonist.I was wondering if it was Ned Lagin or Keith on some odd keyboard,but I settled on Phil because I don't hear any "normal" bass while the wailing is going on,but it is just an educated guess.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Jul 12, 2011 5:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Funny, I kind of settled on Phil too, especially as he enjoys taking a lead in making weird sounds, and there's no bass present. On the other hand, Weir can make weirdness his own too (usually on slide), just seems unlikely in this instance - it's too high up in the mix.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jul 12, 2011 10:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

It seems to be Phil because at some point everyone else can be accounted for,you can hear Weir mirroring Jerry,Keith playing fills on the piano,but I don't hear Phil's bass anywhere,but I would not say with any certainty that it's Phil.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Jul 12, 2011 1:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

I think throughout 73-74, when you hear something that sounds like a cross between trombone, bagpipes, and a flock of geese, it is almost always Phil. I'm not too much of a scholar of the band members' gear, but Phil clearly had an absolutely insane setup during that era that let him unleash truly sick sounds.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jul 11, 2011 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The Dead Quote Coltrane

Good examples!